Inside the museums, Infinity goes up on trial

[tea_and_ink]

I'm back, hopefully. Man, been having crazy times lately, and except for the occasional comment in some of y'all's entries, I've been away from the internets and boy does that hurt!.

But mid-terms were survived (woop!) and the boy's back with his parents, were he rightfully belongs. I have my life back, so of course the first thing to do is to report back with you. Lovely.

I have to say, I was a wee bit underwhelmed by this one. Maybe is how little time Bela got to have to tell us her story, maybe is the freakin' maggots, or maybe I was just expecting more from Kripke than making Lilith be the one holding Dean's contract.

What bothers me about the whole Lilith deal is that she seems to big for this, like they're trying to expand this universe and all about that, but there need to be something more on the ways of good, not just the Winchesters, there has to be more than that, if they have Lilith they have to have some counterpart, I'm not asking for angels to sweep in and save the day, either. I'm just asking for a solid background of Powers That Be to pull all of this mythology together, it feels like they're pulling names and ideas out of their asses and that bugs me to no end.

BUT there are things that I'm happy about. I will tell you them now, in no particular order:

• Dean was essentially calling Sam a monster, and I think Sammy took this to heart, I mean it was Dean saying it. And there must be a part of Sam still worried about his destiny (or what used to be), the whole Boy King schtick still haunts him after all. And the thing with destiny is that it cannot be changed, no matter what you do, what's to happen, will happen. So it is possible this was the way it was supposed to play out all along, maybe this is why Azazel brought Dean back at all. I can't help but remember Dune's recurrent phrase "plans within plans within plans", truth is, we know jack about what's going on because the Winchesters know jack about what's going on. So this is my not-so-elaborated theory, and I'm sticking to it.
• Bela doesn't trust people, she never had any reason to. She was let down so spectacularly by the people she was supposed to trust the most in the world is no surprise she turned out the way she did. At that moment, when the deal was made, she was scared, hurt, feeling used and unworthy, and all of a sudden along comes this little girl that seems to have the way out Bela was so desperately needing, plus she was fourteen years old, not many wise decisions are made at that age, so I do not hold this against her. She did get screwed over in the deal, though, having to leave the country and change her name and all. I do think she continuously made some bad choices, but then again, she really had no reason to believe in humanity after all, and her not trusting the boys, well, old habits die hard. I totally did feel for her, and it broke my heart that such was her ending.
• I really thought Benton's punishment was well-deserved and extremely well executed. Yes, it was kind of merciless on Dean's end, but this is Dean, he's visceral like that. It reminded me a lot of the Doctor's punishments for the Family of Blood, except in that case, the message was more along the lines of "you want to live forever, here, live forever" whereas in Dean's language it's more like "how does immortality look from this perspective?" Serious brownie points to Dean for coming up with it.
• Love the independent streak Sam's developed since MS, although developed might not be the right word, his independence has been a deeply rooted character treat, I just love how it's being explored now, in terms of the hunting. Would be interesting to see how this side of him sits with Dean, were Dean's circumstances different. Sam's showing how relentless he can be, and the whole "I'm staying here, with the hunt" bit would have been noble, except it was tarnished (at least for me) by his ulterior motives, and I'm loving it SO MUCH. 

I'm not sure I loved this episode all that much, other than the aforementioned points (and Lauren's performance, of course). I thought it was all right, but not that outstanding. As I said earlier, I'm having issues with Lilith holding Dean's contract (if she holds all the contracts, maybe she has subordinates and one of them is the "he" Sandy!Demon told Sam about. Maybe Bela was being toyed with, in order to get Sam (and Dean) out of the way. God, so many maybe's). I'm gonna have to wait until next Thursday to decide how do I feel about this one.

And because I need the distraction, here, have some meme I snagged from silver_spotted

1. What do you think of _____________ ?

2. When did you last ____________?

3. __________ or ___________ and why?

4. What did you ______________?

5. What's your favorite ______________?

6. How would you ______________?

7. Who would you most like to ________ ?

Comments

[silver-spotted.livejournal.com]

My reaction to the ep is complex - a lot of the ep rubbed me the wrong way, like Sam not even realizing that the last thing Dean wants to be is the sort of monster they hunt. On the other hand, the monster was really scary and I like that they didn't show Bela being dragged away by the hounds in a gruesome way.

I really like you assessment of the Lilith plot-point, it feels more contrived and less like an organic part of the mythology they've been developing.

and now, some questions :)

1. What do you think of the Ood ?

2. When did you last get a sunburn?

3. Dr. Who or Supernatural and why?

4. What did you have for breakfast?

5. What's your favorite movie?

6. How would you improve either Dr. Who or Supernatural?

7. Who would you most like to play monopoly with ?

[penandnotebook]

Yeah, that thought occurred to me too, but I think Sam got too caught up on the not-black-magic-necessary part to truly realize what he was asking of Dean, plus Sam's the one with the shades of gray, maybe he was a bit naive there? I'm thinking he didn't actually thought through the fact that they'd have to maintain this form of life. Or that's what I'm blaming it on.

Lilith just seems too big in our world, yet not big enough in theirs. This bothers me because it feels disgruntled, like pieces of a puzzle that don't fit. As I put it in the post, it's like they went for the big name and only then did they realize there was a background needed for that name (okay so I didn't say it like that on the post, but the core idea remains), as if they're making it up as they go.

I need to see how they wove all this together for the finale, I mean, there's still the chance it can all be blamed on the strike and all the time it took away from the show. I'm going with that.

Uh, let's see:
1. The Ood were some of my favorite creatures, I really think the giant brain thing in Planet of the Ood was not as cool as I had imagined their planet to be (way back in The Impossible Planet/Satan's Pit, I thought they came from a sentient planet of some sort, and that's why they were a slave race. It was nicer to make humans the culprits for that one, but the giant brain was a big turn off for me), but despite that I loved that they sang to communicate with each other. That was lovely and oddly sensitive, to make such strange creatures be so delicate and refined.

2. Last summer I burned my left shoulder blade, it hurt for about a week before it resolved into stains. My skin is annoying like that.

3. Jeez. Um, this is a tough one. Supernatural. Because I care so much about these two. I love the Doctor and his awesome companions, but I can't be as forgiving with their plots and plot holes as I am with Spn's; I mean, the guy set the atmosphere on fire, he's supposed to be a genius you know?. And Dean and Sam, they pull my heartstrings in so many ways, not even Tennant's smile makes me as happy as Sam and Dean's banter (when they're relaxed enough to banter) they're such brothers, and I can't remember another TV show portraying a brothers' relationship as accurate as this one.

4. Toasts with butter and coffee. Yum.

5. Monty Python and the Holy Grail, since I was a wee thing. Recently, Sunshine.

6. I might need an extra reply box for this. Huh. Since I'm way more invested in Spn, we'll go with that one. I'd give it a stronger mythology, I think it's lacking in this department and, as I've stated, it bothers me because there should be a stronger foundation for the Winchesters to explain their world. I'd add more female characters (or bring Jo and Ellen back) because I'm tired of the boys going to Bobby for whatever they need (I love Bobby, I do, but the world is too wide), and I think interesting dynamics would take place that would allow us to explore the boys a little deeper. That's what I'd do (in a rather large) nutshell.

7. Scout Finch

[silver-spotted.livejournal.com]

:D

(man I am slow - sorry)

what do you think of Lilith/the finale now?

[penandnotebook]

Hi, I too is slow, so together we make one?

I think Lilith has potential, it all depends on where is Spn drawing their mythology from. I mean, if they go with the Christian bible route, she'll have been human once, which would support Ruby's statement that every demon she's ever met was human in the beginning (if this is so, then I'd think Ruby wasn't the social butterfly, I just refuse to believe Azazel and his Yellow Eyed kind (if there ever are more) were also humans once upon a time), or they could go with other traditions (on which I'm shamefully not-as-knowledgeable) and make her have been born a demon. Obviously both options have interest for me.

In terms of her development in the finale, well, they could have done more, though I will give them the whole she enjoys playing with people thing, she's extremely sadist, we don't know if this is a common treat between demons or not, but in her case, she seems to enjoy psychological games more than actual physical pain, which in my educated opinion makes her more (for lack of a better word at the moment) sophisticated, than say merely enjoying being able to make someone bleed and scream, she enjoys the power play. And I think this particular aspect leans my scale toward the once-human possibility.

My theory is this: There are several types of demons, we'd have those that have been demons since the beginnings of their times, and then there are those that became demons, according to what I exposed earlier, Lilith would fit in the latter category, no idea how did she come to be what she is, but it would agree with the power play, she is a demon having raised above mere humanity (her own, clearly) she's more powerful than the feeble creatures she chooses to inflict her particular brand of torture upon, and this is where she draws her pleasure from. Psychologically speaking, she's a child, no boundaries from the outer world, and everything there's to be gained, goes to satisfy her principle of pleasure.

Following the lines of my theory, Azazel would have been originally a demon, since his, uh, conception (I really need to know more about the balance of powers in the Spn verse, man. This screws with my theories because they are incomplete ::is peeved::) and by being so, he would have had the power to organize an army in hell to take over the earth. Lilith on her end, would have risen as an opposing leader to Sam because she was there once, but she has overcome all of her humanity. This may create an interesting push-pull because I don't think Azazel's plans were quite similar to Lilith's, I'm thinking Azazel wanted the power of demons walking on earth, unchecked and unchallenged, just taking over this piece of land because it's better than what they have in hell, whereas Lilith might only want a New Harmony situation on a massively larger scale, she may want power just for power.

I'm thinking Sam is such a threat to Lilith because (if she was once human) she was like him, back in the day, only she got to be brought up in an environment where her perversions were cultivated, where she was raised for power as opposed to Sam's upbringing which was more normal (in comparison, anyway). Would explain why she was so in awe of what it was like to be all "grown up and pretty" when she possessed Ruby's hostess, might even explain her kissing Sam, if she died while being a child, she did not get to experience all these things while alive, clearly she can possess any body she wishes to, but, IMO, an adult behaving the way Lilith behaves, whimsical, bipolar, etc. would not be nearly as off-balancing as a child doing it. I mean, my family would be a lot more scared (fodder for Lilith's power plays) if my little sister started acting psychotic than if it was me, I'm older, the impact would not be as terrifying, painful and scary (especially if I suddenly developed telekinesis), so her taking up little girls' bodies would be strictly for mindfuckery reasons.

NOTE: this comment continues in a second one ::headdesk::

[penandnotebook]

Uh, back to Sam, he'd be such a threat to Lilith, because if they are both wood from the same tree, Sam has had more time to be alive, he's stronger and more powerful, she doesn't have the same effect on him as she does on regular Joes and he has had training (honing his abilities). I would see this as the reason why Lilith would want Sam out of the way, why she'd fear him. If this is what she became after only so few years of life, imagine what would Sam become. Plus, let's not forget that Azazel had all this faith in Sam being able to pull it off. Lilith is just seizing her opportunity, if Azazel's plans had gone down according to his original scheming, there would be no room for Lilith's antagonism since she'd pose no threat whatsoever to Sam's leadership.

Clearly I: a) caught wind, b) am somewhat rambly and unfocused, and c) cannot put this kind of thinking process to use when writing actual meta posts, there must be something about the comments, like, I can't handle the pressure of this level of exposition in my own posts, but on someone else's comments (with the obvious incentive, of course) I get the freedom I do not allow myself. Apparently where Lilith seems to lack boundaries (according to me), I have too many, mostly self-imposed.

What does that say about me?

Also, please notice how my icon has never been put to better use :)

[silver-spotted.livejournal.com]

oooh... interesting speculation!

I especially like the idea that Lilith was a human child, is trapped psychologically in her childhood, and was groomed for a position of power akin to that of a chief demon. I have to admit I don't think the show will go into any of that, but it might remain as my canon now :P

I think if it were true it might point to the sort of eternal nature of the Winchesters' struggle, since presumably in this scenario Lilith as human child would have been groomed by demon "parents", perhaps they bought her from her parents. I think demons such as YED or others might well have had the time and/or boredom and/or far-sighted plans to do such a thing.

Of course, SPN's close focus on the boys makes me doubt we'll get many more answers, but by that same token it's interesting that Lilith left the body of the child, a being that Sam hesitated to kill, to instead take the body of a woman, known to be already inhabited by a demon, when we know (so she should know) that the Winchesters don't really hesitate too long to kill such a creature (think the crossroad demon Sam shot)

and now it was my turn to ramble :P

[angieb5.livejournal.com]

the whole Lilith deal is that she seems to big for this

I agree that they haven't fleshed out Lilith as well as they did for the YED, and I also agree that there needs to be some sort of balance between good and evil.

[penandnotebook]

Maybe we'll get to that next season? I know it sounds apologetic, but I do think the strike had a lot to do with them lacking character development on Lilith. They had to tie up too many loose ends in too little time, end result, the Lilith we don't know.

Hopefully along with fourth season, will come a more balanced play of powers. I just want that bit more. It's the constant tapping on the back of my head, always wondering if there really isn't more, then how come demons don't already own the earth?

[angieb5.livejournal.com]

I couldn't agree more, and I'm just so glad that she got away at the end because it means she'll be back next season, and I can't wait to find out more about how she fits into all of this.